Why Death

[00:00:00] Beyond Goodbye is a podcast that explores dying, death and grief and may contain sensitive or distressing material that could be triggering for some individuals and is not suitable for all audiences. Therefore, listener discretion is advised.

[00:00:17] When the body is awake, the soul is its servant and is never her own mistress. But when the body is at rest, the soul, being set in motion and awake, has cognizance of all things, sees what is visible, hears what is audible, walks, touches, feels pain, ponders.

[00:00:42] Welcome back to Beyond Goodbye. I am your host, Angela Sturm. The quote you just heard is by Hippocrates and it's referencing dreaming. But when I read this, I got to thinking, what if death is simply setting our souls into motion? Often death is seen as the end and in some ways it is.

[00:01:21] After all, we were never meant to live in these bodies forever and when they no longer serve our souls, we shed them. I'd like to think this is comforting and in a way maybe for me it is.

[00:01:34] But how do we get there? The place where we can find comfort in our belief that the soul goes on. How do those of us left behind reconcile the spirits of our loved ones who once were with human loss of the present?

[00:01:46] Why do we even need to be in a place where this is a thing? Many of us have lost someone too soon. My loss has caused me to question everything and one word plays over and over in my head. Why? Why death?

[00:02:02] Why can't our souls inhabit these vessels forever? Why do I need to feel so much pain at the loss? Why would someone take my children's lives like that? Why is this country, this world, so hateful towards one another?

[00:02:16] I quite easily find myself heading down the rabbit hole with this one word. Why?

[00:02:22] Well in today's episode my guest, Joshua Fredrickson and I will touch on why death.

[00:02:29] Joshua is a licensed clinical social worker who specializes in brain injuries as well as a licensed realtor.

[00:02:34] He has unfortunately experienced the pain of losing someone too soon.

[00:02:39] Josh has agreed to share his story with us and talk about the whys and what we as a community could use more of.

[00:02:46] Josh, welcome.

[00:02:48] Thank you.

[00:02:50] Appreciate you coming on.

[00:02:52] We'd like to use this show to hopefully help others who really haven't found a way to process and these little snippets, these little bits of time.

[00:03:00] My hope is that we're giving them a voice and at the same time they have a place to go where they can be like, this doesn't make me, I'm not crazy.

[00:03:10] Someone else is thinking that, someone else is feeling that and that's kind of the goal of this.

[00:03:15] So I really appreciate you agreeing to be on today.

[00:03:18] And I appreciate the opportunity to do so.

[00:03:20] Thank you.

[00:03:22] So well let's start out with telling us about your loss story.

[00:03:25] Sure.

[00:03:26] So it was two years ago.

[00:03:29] It'll be, well two years in July.

[00:03:32] So July 30th I believe, I always get it wrong.

[00:03:37] I always either say the 31st or 30th and my mom always corrects me but she's not here so.

[00:03:42] But I was out actually at a friend of mine's house out in an enchanted island in Lake Minnetonka, one of my happy places and I just got done working out with my buddy Brian.

[00:03:54] And I was on my way back home and I got a call.

[00:04:02] And it was my nephew's dad Jim.

[00:04:05] And Jim said, hey Josh you know have you talked to Katie?

[00:04:09] And I said no.

[00:04:11] And he said well I just got a call from a cop from Brooklyn Center and she asked me where Amory was.

[00:04:20] And Amory is Jim's son, my sister Katie's son, 17 years old.

[00:04:29] And Jim said well I think he's at home.

[00:04:32] And the officer said make sure he stays at home and he does not go to his mother's because he does not need to see this.

[00:04:42] Take your time.

[00:04:44] So of course my mind goes racing.

[00:04:55] Katie didn't always make the best choices.

[00:05:01] I was thinking maybe her and her friends got caught doing something they shouldn't be doing.

[00:05:07] Maybe she was using drugs again.

[00:05:09] The last thing that I was thinking of is that I was going to find out that I lost my sister.

[00:05:17] So thank you.

[00:05:26] I sped her home and I pulled up and I saw the crime tape surrounding her house in the block.

[00:05:39] And I came running up and the cops came running up and they stopped me and they told me she was gone.

[00:05:46] Sorry.

[00:05:48] Yeah, my knees buckled.

[00:05:51] I hit the ground and I started bawling.

[00:05:59] And I sat there for about an hour just staring down at the ground.

[00:06:07] The police officer came up and she said you know they're about ready to take her out.

[00:06:14] She said it can be really hard to see this.

[00:06:17] She advised me to get up and go and I took her advice.

[00:06:23] I sometimes regret it.

[00:06:25] Sometimes I don't.

[00:06:27] I don't know if I really needed to see that but part of me feels like I did.

[00:06:34] Why do you feel like you did?

[00:06:36] Like I needed to see it just because it was like my last opportunity to see my sister.

[00:06:40] But I wouldn't even have seen her.

[00:06:42] She would have been wrapped in a sheet and God knows what else I would have seen.

[00:06:47] Yeah.

[00:06:49] I chose not to look at pictures and things at the trial because of that.

[00:06:59] It's not what I wanted my last memory to be because my last memory already was, you know, that they'd been murdered.

[00:07:06] Yeah.

[00:07:07] I don't think you should feel guilty about leaving.

[00:07:11] I think that was wise advice from an officer who probably sees this enough times to know.

[00:07:17] Yeah.

[00:07:19] Yeah.

[00:07:21] Did they get who did it?

[00:07:23] Yeah, they did.

[00:07:25] So we they knew who it was.

[00:07:27] They didn't tell me right away but they knew who it was.

[00:07:30] So apparently there was Katie had two friends at the at the house.

[00:07:34] That when they heard the gunshots, they actually jumped out the window and and it was the guy who did it.

[00:07:42] His name was Michael Klinger and Michael was somebody that Katie had dated probably six, seven years prior.

[00:07:48] And you know, Katie was the kind of person that would never turn her back on anybody.

[00:07:52] And sometimes and I, you know, this is what I said in my speech at the court is sometimes, you know, will hold a gun.

[00:08:01] Sometimes, you know, we'll hold on to relationships that can can be toxic.

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:09] And this was no exception.

[00:08:11] This man actually lived at my house for a period of time.

[00:08:16] Oh.

[00:08:18] Yeah, I used to rent out to guys coming out of Teen Challenge right when I, you know, soon after I bought my home.

[00:08:25] Yeah, I was working.

[00:08:27] It was before I had any of my degrees and I was, you know, just struggling to get by and and trying to make good choices and stuff.

[00:08:35] And and Mike needed a place to stay.

[00:08:38] And so I let him come and rent at my house.

[00:08:41] He ended up ditching out on me, you know, on the like I came home on the first one day and he was gone.

[00:08:49] All this stuff was gone.

[00:08:50] But, you know, one thing that I recognized about him when I was living with him is that, you know, if there's anything deviant, if there was any anything that was exploitative, if you will.

[00:09:03] If there is something that would be of questionable character, those things really interest him.

[00:09:09] Like he was one of those guys.

[00:09:12] You know, let's get over on this person.

[00:09:14] How can we exploit this girl?

[00:09:15] You know, how can we do, you know, that's that those are the things that that seemed to really, you know, you'd see a twinkle in his eye almost when he started talking about him or he heard about the opportunities.

[00:09:25] I would try to, you know, give him feedback and, you know, tell him where that's going to get him.

[00:09:31] But I'm quite certain it went through one year and out the other.

[00:09:35] And then time and history would prove that I was right.

[00:09:38] I suspect the man Antoine Suggs is who murdered my children and Lois Foreman and Natasha.

[00:09:47] I suspect that he was the same.

[00:09:49] He got off on, you know, taking things and seeing what he'd get without giving anything and not really having a care in the world for other people.

[00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:01] And that's hard because, you know, how do you, how do you reconcile that with human behavior when you're not like that?

[00:10:10] It's like you look at that and you can't understand it because you're not that person.

[00:10:14] That's not who you are.

[00:10:16] And so true.

[00:10:18] And it's, yeah, it's hard to see human behavior.

[00:10:20] Humans in general have come to not like many in this day and age.

[00:10:24] It's so hard because I am intrinsically a loving helper.

[00:10:29] That's what I was created to do.

[00:10:32] And, you know, when I see those kind of character attributes and people it's really, really hard for me.

[00:10:40] You know, my heart of hearts wants to be compassionate and caring, but to be honest, I get angry.

[00:10:46] I get angry at him.

[00:10:47] You know, I have a friend that's, you know, he's trying, but like, you know, some of the things that he done and I just, I just.

[00:10:54] Probably even more so now.

[00:10:56] I bark at him, you know, I bark at him and I'm like, listen, that is not the way to be.

[00:11:01] And you are not going to act like that around me.

[00:11:03] And, you know, and I don't know that at necessarily falls in line with my values to be honest with you, you know.

[00:11:12] But it is insidious.

[00:11:15] Those, you know, folks with those kind of personalities and behaviors and you have to really watch yourself when you get around them so you don't become them.

[00:11:23] Yeah, you really do.

[00:11:25] You really have to be very aware of who you bring into your circle and spend time with and give your energy to.

[00:11:32] I've said this in a past podcast where the one of the biggest things that biggest changes I've seen in me after this was my circle of.

[00:11:41] People became very small and I didn't feel guilty telling somebody.

[00:11:46] I'm not interested.

[00:11:48] I didn't feel guilty saying, yeah, no, I'm not going to hang out.

[00:11:50] I set much better boundaries and it incredibly made some people really angry.

[00:11:57] You know, all of a sudden they can't do this to me or walk over me or expect me to do something for them.

[00:12:03] And that was kind of freeing in a way.

[00:12:07] But I was also surprised at how little my circle got when I chose to really just make decisions that were better for me and my family that was left.

[00:12:18] I mean, I feel like I lost a third of my family, you know, the two kids and my mom was a tough time.

[00:12:25] And I get to a point even now where sometimes I'll be in my car and think I don't actually really care about anything except for the grandkids and my last remaining son.

[00:12:36] And my dad, of course, but outside of that, it's like if I make somebody mad, don't care.

[00:12:41] Even at work, it's a struggle for me at work.

[00:12:44] I love my job, but some days I get in there and I lose focus.

[00:12:50] It's really hard for me to stay focused sometimes when I'm upset.

[00:12:53] This week was really tough as I was telling him before we started.

[00:12:56] And I sit there and I'm thinking, I got to get caught up and get this done or I'm going to get fired.

[00:13:01] And then I'll be like, I don't really care.

[00:13:02] I do care, of course.

[00:13:04] You know, I have to bills to pay and whatnot.

[00:13:06] But my attitude, I think part of that is probably some depression and just not working through some things.

[00:13:13] But it's a hard place to be.

[00:13:15] What do you do to soothe yourself?

[00:13:18] Like what are some of the tools you use, if you will, to comfort yourself when times hit like this?

[00:13:27] Well, every day even because it's every day, right?

[00:13:29] Yeah, it doesn't go away.

[00:13:31] No.

[00:13:33] Some of my happy places are the gym.

[00:13:37] I call it Camp Happy actually.

[00:13:40] Nice.

[00:13:42] Time with my dogs.

[00:13:45] Time spent practicing my faith.

[00:13:48] I'm a Christian.

[00:13:50] Like listening to podcasts and radio.

[00:13:53] And altruistic pursuits.

[00:13:54] I love helping people almost to a fault because you can't give away something that you don't got.

[00:14:00] Yeah.

[00:14:02] So you got to find out how you fill that cup back up again.

[00:14:06] The aforementioned, I guess it would be some of those things and I'm constantly seeking out new things and new ways to be able to fill that cup.

[00:14:24] Back up because it's hard.

[00:14:27] And I'm going to be 50 years old in February, excuse me, in September.

[00:14:34] So that's going to be a reality in life.

[00:14:37] These next 20, 30 years, however long, 40, God willing, right?

[00:14:43] Then I'm around.

[00:14:45] There's going to be a lot of death.

[00:14:47] There's going to be a lot of loss.

[00:14:49] And that's just a reality of life.

[00:14:54] And going through what I went through and what I've seen my family go through and the community go through with my sister and other incidents and things that I see, it's tough.

[00:15:11] It is.

[00:15:12] I always wonder, you know, my dad is 76 now and his cancer had returned, but it's now in remission.

[00:15:22] But I always think like I'm just not ready yet.

[00:15:26] It's too soon.

[00:15:28] I have a friend, a very, very dear friend of mine who I've known.

[00:15:31] Gosh, we've known each other 40 years maybe.

[00:15:34] And she was right by my side through all of this.

[00:15:39] She's dealing with a very serious aggressive cancer right now that just came out of the blue.

[00:15:45] Oh, no.

[00:15:47] And I look at that and I'm thinking, I can't lose you too.

[00:15:51] I mean, we've had this whole life together and we have these things planned for the future.

[00:15:58] And I mean, I know it's not guaranteed, but it makes you ask why?

[00:16:02] You know, do you find yourself asking that?

[00:16:06] The why is of everything and going down that route.

[00:16:10] I go down a huge rabbit hole like I get on soapboxes like no one's business on why this, why that.

[00:16:16] I don't believe in this.

[00:16:18] I don't believe in that.

[00:16:20] And it's a struggle like literally why death.

[00:16:24] Yeah.

[00:16:27] So for me, it's actually kind of easy.

[00:16:36] Created things have limitations to one another.

[00:16:39] Whether it be physical things or living things like us, right?

[00:16:46] We have limitations.

[00:16:48] We were created.

[00:16:50] We're imperfect.

[00:16:52] We're not going to be around forever and going back to your commentary about the soul.

[00:16:56] But the soul can go forever.

[00:16:58] And when I think about the word why, right?

[00:17:02] It's like the answer is there already, right?

[00:17:05] We can all make our own choices, right?

[00:17:08] And we can use that free will to do good things or we can use that free will to do bad things.

[00:17:13] And some people choose to do bad things with their free will and hurt other people and take from the world around them and give nothing back cause pain agony.

[00:17:25] And that's how they fill their cup.

[00:17:28] It might be hard to wrap your head around, but you don't have to because you're not them.

[00:17:31] Right?

[00:17:33] On the other side of the coin, there's some people that do things with their free will that are beautiful and wonderful and helping and healing and thoughtful, caring, kind, compassionate, altruistic.

[00:17:45] Right? And there's our answer.

[00:17:47] That's why.

[00:17:49] Because there is goodness world and there is evil.

[00:17:52] And unfortunately folks like us have to encounter both.

[00:17:55] I wish it could be just good.

[00:17:57] But I can't sit here and tell you that I have been good 100% of the time either.

[00:18:04] Yeah, me neither.

[00:18:06] Me neither.

[00:18:08] But I want to be.

[00:18:10] Me too.

[00:18:12] I really do.

[00:18:14] When I pray that's what I ask.

[00:18:16] Can I just be better than I was before?

[00:18:18] Can I just be a good man?

[00:18:20] Can I just model that kind of person that I would want to be?

[00:18:22] You know, and some days I'm successful.

[00:18:25] You know, other days I'm lacking.

[00:18:28] Yeah.

[00:18:30] That's true.

[00:18:32] Every now and then I'll catch myself being a little petty about something and I'm like really?

[00:18:35] Or judgy.

[00:18:37] And I'm like, really?

[00:18:39] Did you really need to go there and even I for a long time I suffered from a little bit of like anger driving.

[00:18:44] Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:46] You know, flipping off kind of thing which I don't do now because I don't want to get shot.

[00:18:48] And even now sometimes I'll be cussing someone out that did something and I'm thinking really?

[00:18:54] Is that necessary?

[00:18:56] I mean, maybe they didn't see you or you know, or maybe they're rushing to an emergency like you.

[00:19:01] You know, it's like I try to kind of rain myself back in but yeah, I do find that it's human nature.

[00:19:07] I suspect that it is.

[00:19:09] And we all have it in us.

[00:19:11] You know, so some people are just better managing it that or have a better moral compass.

[00:19:15] I don't even know if it's that.

[00:19:17] I think it's, I think it's well you're the brain guy.

[00:19:19] I think it's something more chemical.

[00:19:22] It is with those kinds of decisions.

[00:19:25] It is some people are wired differently than others.

[00:19:29] Some people are very reactionary and can't deal with anxiety the same way that other people do right and and then it comes out sideways.

[00:19:37] You know, and oftentimes it can be bad behaviors can come out as anger, you know, can come out as depression.

[00:19:43] Irritability, discontent.

[00:19:46] Some people even get violent.

[00:19:48] But none of those are good things.

[00:19:51] Nope.

[00:19:53] And but it's hard, you know, and I can totally identify with them.

[00:19:56] Like I get behind the wheel.

[00:19:58] That is that is right now my mountain.

[00:20:01] My mountain is to be a nice guy in the car because I'm not a nice guy in the car.

[00:20:05] Yeah.

[00:20:07] You know, I just my in fact it's funny that you mentioned that because I was just talking with one of my best friends last night.

[00:20:13] Which you know what I also would mention that is also part of what I do to heal is my friends and family.

[00:20:19] But I was talking with him and he you know he's close enough to me and he's like dude, you know, you kind of scared me the other day when we were driving like, you know, you.

[00:20:28] Yeah, I was like, you know what?

[00:20:30] And he's like, oh shit.

[00:20:32] He actually literally said that and I was like, no, you're absolutely right.

[00:20:36] He's like, well thank you.

[00:20:38] No, thank you for being brave enough to say something.

[00:20:40] Yeah.

[00:20:42] You know, because this isn't anything that I'm not aware of.

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:46] You know, this is something I pray about every day.

[00:20:48] Reminders once in a while.

[00:20:50] Exactly.

[00:20:52] Exactly.

[00:20:54] So it's a thing.

[00:20:55] My middle son Matthew who was murdered.

[00:20:58] He struggled with some mental health issues.

[00:21:01] His dad was bipolar and you know, they don't diagnose kids as bipolar under the age of 20 or back then under the age of 20.

[00:21:09] And I remember him telling me when he was very young, I got home from work and he was sitting on the couch crying.

[00:21:16] And he says, why am I?

[00:21:19] Why do I have to be the one that's not normal?

[00:21:20] And you know, his brain worked differently.

[00:21:23] He didn't sleep.

[00:21:25] He was ADHD.

[00:21:27] He just was a creative so he could pick up any instrument and teach himself.

[00:21:33] He had perfect pitch when he sang.

[00:21:35] He was very gifted.

[00:21:38] But you know with that it seems like the brain is lacking in other areas.

[00:21:42] And he was on medication.

[00:21:44] He was fine being on it even as an adult and I used to have to tell him maybe everyone else is the one for the ones that aren't normal.

[00:21:52] Right.

[00:21:54] And we'd have long conversations about it.

[00:21:56] And I like to think I gave him all the tools that I could.

[00:21:58] He, as far as I know, wasn't a violent person.

[00:22:01] He did struggle with some substances and then he'd go through, okay, I'm not going to do that anymore.

[00:22:07] Then he's back on it again.

[00:22:09] It's a psychic.

[00:22:10] Then he's back on it again.

[00:22:12] It's a cycle.

[00:22:14] But he used the tools.

[00:22:17] He was very empathetic and very, very sensitive to people.

[00:22:21] He did not like hurting people's feelings.

[00:22:23] And his got hurt real easily.

[00:22:26] So he told me one of the last things he said to me is probably a couple weeks before he died.

[00:22:30] I was picking him up.

[00:22:32] He was chronically homeless.

[00:22:35] I mean he would be living with somebody and then it didn't work out.

[00:22:38] Then he'd be living somewhere else and that didn't work out and so forth.

[00:22:40] Until he had his daughter and then he started, I don't know what,

[00:22:46] I don't know that the cycle would have stopped, but he started taking some different steps.

[00:22:50] So he got on a list for some housing.

[00:22:53] He got a decent job.

[00:22:55] My daughter got him a good job waiting tables which fit with his ADHD and he's a real people person.

[00:23:01] And he told me when we were driving back, he says, Mom,

[00:23:04] I don't want you to feel guilty about telling me no.

[00:23:08] I had, I had to set some boundaries with him at some point so that I wasn't, he was, I wasn't enabling.

[00:23:14] And he says, I don't want you to feel guilty about saying no to this or not helping me with some things.

[00:23:21] And he says, because this isn't your fault.

[00:23:24] He says, you've given me all the tools that I've needed and I know that you love me and I know you do this because you love me.

[00:23:31] He says, I have the tools and the position that I'm in is because I got myself in that position, not you.

[00:23:39] And I haven't, that's the first time I've been able to say that without crying.

[00:23:43] Wow. Yeah. I mean, what a powerful statement of self-awareness.

[00:23:47] Yeah. And he really just, it was nice to hear because I did feel guilty.

[00:23:52] And just to know that he really had some introspection going on there because of his daughter.

[00:23:58] And just making those changes. I mean, if anything could be left with me with them being murdered, that was one of them.

[00:24:08] You know? And our, in fact, our very last words that night before he was murdered was he said, I love you and I said, I love you more.

[00:24:16] And that was the last time, you know, and that was hard.

[00:24:19] And my daughter, I had gotten her job with me as my assistant.

[00:24:24] And that Friday and she was still working on weekends waiting tables.

[00:24:30] Yeah. Her fiancee were our boyfriend soon to be fiancee.

[00:24:34] Lois were saving up to buy a house and she came over and she was filling out her death benefit life insurance.

[00:24:42] And she's like, did I feel this outright?

[00:24:45] And I said, yep. And then she flipped her hair. She had beautiful long hair and she flips her hair and she goes, but we all know you're dying first.

[00:24:51] And then two days later, she was dead.

[00:24:53] It was the worst thing ever.

[00:24:56] And yeah. And I go back to the wise.

[00:24:59] I don't know if I'm where you're at with the wise, to be honest.

[00:25:03] I have a lot of questions and answers that I get or answers that, you know, as I'm talking with other people.

[00:25:09] It still doesn't. It still doesn't satisfy.

[00:25:14] And honestly, I don't think even when our souls go, I do believe souls and spirit go into a different place.

[00:25:21] I do believe that goes on. I mean, energy can't create it. Can't kill it. Right?

[00:25:25] I don't know that we get all the answers though.

[00:25:31] I had a friend of mine say, oh, after my mom had passed, oh, now she knows has the answers to everything.

[00:25:36] I'm like, really? I don't know what she does. And that's where I'm at with my wise.

[00:25:42] You know, I'm still really, really, maybe I'm still very angry.

[00:25:45] I don't know what I am. I feel very, what is the word?

[00:25:52] I feel very dissociated with everything.

[00:25:55] I'm real indifferent to a lot of stuff.

[00:25:58] Well, you were cheated.

[00:26:00] I was cheated and their kids were cheated.

[00:26:02] They were. And that breeds indifference.

[00:26:03] You know, think about it. If you're, I mean, if you're out there playing a game of volleyball against another team, right?

[00:26:10] And you know that they're cheating. Eventually you're just going to be like, whatever.

[00:26:14] Yeah. Like what? Why am I even trying?

[00:26:16] Right? They're cheating.

[00:26:18] Right?

[00:26:20] And it's and that's that's that's what it breeds.

[00:26:22] It breeds this indifference is this numbness, if you will.

[00:26:26] What do you think? If anything, our communities could do or we need within the communities.

[00:26:37] You know, so much violence right now. So much hatred. I just.

[00:26:42] So, you know, a lot of it, I think, you know, goes with our media and what we're pumping out.

[00:26:51] You know, and.

[00:26:54] But I can't say the media is totally responsible because who watches the media?

[00:27:01] We do.

[00:27:03] Right? So, you know, I think that, you know, and I'm not, I'm not God or I'm not, you know, Buddha or the Dalai Lama and I don't know everything in the world.

[00:27:13] But what's coming in my head right now as I'm thinking is like, you know, if we can just start, you know, on a person to person level, right?

[00:27:23] To teach our friends and our family and our young ones that love first.

[00:27:29] First, right? The rest of those things all have their place.

[00:27:34] We have, we also have to going along with love.

[00:27:38] We have to mirror image that we have to show people what that is.

[00:27:41] Exactly.

[00:27:43] People really don't know what that is anymore. We say love so freely, but do you really know what that means?

[00:27:48] No, action.

[00:27:50] It is a verb. Yes.

[00:27:52] Love is a verb. Yes.

[00:27:54] Right? It is not a noun.

[00:27:56] Yeah. Okay. It is something you do, choose to do.

[00:28:00] Yes. By choice. Yes.

[00:28:02] Every day, every hour, every minute, every second, you can choose love.

[00:28:06] Yeah.

[00:28:08] Or you can choose the other things and it all comes back down to that volition thing that free will.

[00:28:13] What are you going to do? Are you going to choose to do something good or are you going to choose to do something bad?

[00:28:18] Right? And you can call it the love, sewing and reaping, karma, whatever.

[00:28:23] Yeah. You know, Newton's love for every action. There's an equal and opposite reaction.

[00:28:28] However you experience that, right? It's fact.

[00:28:33] Yep. Yep.

[00:28:34] That's what I'm hoping to honor my children in with their children, my grandchildren is to mirror love.

[00:28:45] And we talk about, you know, the kids talk about their mom and dad's death.

[00:28:49] Well, Melani doesn't, she's only four, but she does talk about it.

[00:28:54] She learned in preschool they had a, an animal die and she learned what death was.

[00:28:58] And when she came home, she was so upset with her mom and she said, is my daddy dead?

[00:29:04] And it dawned on her what that meant.

[00:29:07] But we all talk about it and we talk about the man who'd done this.

[00:29:12] I have an episode on forgiveness and Natasha's dad was on with me.

[00:29:17] He's on the coin right to the side of not forgiving and I have forgiven.

[00:29:21] I don't like using that word. I use release, but that's my own, you know, psychological thing.

[00:29:26] But I talk with the kids a lot about empathy about, and we'll talk about the killer because I want them, I think when they get older to come to their own choices.

[00:29:37] But we do talk about remembering that we're all born pure. We're innocent.

[00:29:45] Yes we are.

[00:29:47] And there are people that have these experiences that cause them to behave certain ways.

[00:29:50] There are people that have brain chemicals that are a certain way, but we can still work with that.

[00:29:56] And we can still be choose to be kind.

[00:29:59] We had the community has been fantastic to us and our first, what was really the second Christmas because they died in September and then it was October, but the Christmas in 2023.

[00:30:12] Not 2022 sorry.

[00:30:15] The community came together and they had an inordinate amount of gifts for the children.

[00:30:20] And I had just, I sat them down before I let them open the gifts and I was like, this is not what we're going to have all the time. Christmas is not about gifts.

[00:30:30] And we had a talk about the importance of giving to community and that the community was giving to us because we were hurting.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:39] And we were choosing to do this by gifts and experiences.

[00:30:42] Yeah.

[00:30:44] And I said, and as you know more Christmases and holidays come, we're going to do that for our community too.

[00:30:49] Yeah.

[00:30:51] And they got it. I asked them to repeat to me what does that mean to you?

[00:30:54] Yeah.

[00:30:56] And they got it and that's what we do all the time where we do that at opening doors. The boys, you know even Zaden Husebani opens the door for people.

[00:31:04] And we say, excuse me. We say thank you. Make sure people are okay and we don't bully, you know, we make sure we're not bullying.

[00:31:13] So it's a constant being an example and then requiring that of the kids and hopefully, you know, that's one way I guess to make the change our community needs.

[00:31:25] I just wish everybody would do that.

[00:31:26] I think it's a hard place to be at when your mindset isn't there.

[00:31:31] And especially if you haven't experienced what we've experienced and losing somebody like that, I think it's harder to be kinder when you've not had loss.

[00:31:42] I feel like I could be wrong.

[00:31:44] I don't think you are.

[00:31:46] I think it really brings things into perspective.

[00:31:49] And when you encounter it yourself, it's an entirely different scenario.

[00:31:55] It's pretty easy to give somebody else advice and support somebody else but to give yourself advice or to support yourself, that's an entirely different thing.

[00:32:07] It's hard.

[00:32:09] It's sometimes nearly impossible.

[00:32:10] But when it comes down to it, this is what I know is 100% true.

[00:32:16] Is that there is basically two ways to deal with trauma at the end of the day, right?

[00:32:22] One of them is that you go and continue to do self-destructive things.

[00:32:27] You go down to dark places.

[00:32:29] You continue the hurt that you were hurt by and engage in it and you let it eat you up and destroy you.

[00:32:35] Or you take that hurt and use it to motivate you, to examine your character.

[00:32:44] You use it to try and help other people when it comes down to like if I can take a shot.

[00:32:53] If I can keep somebody else from taking a shot on the chin that I've already taken, right?

[00:32:58] Now all the pain and suffering that I've been through has got some purpose and meaning.

[00:33:04] And purpose and meaning will get you through.

[00:33:07] Yeah, that's beautiful.

[00:33:11] Well friends, we've come to the end of our time.

[00:33:16] Thank you Josh for being so vulnerable and sharing and coming on today.

[00:33:21] It really does.

[00:33:23] I get emails and like direct messages and things like that from people who say that I had one woman say,

[00:33:29] now I know I'm not crazy and somebody else that said, you know, I'm referring you this podcast to other people.

[00:33:36] It does help to hear, we're in pain.

[00:33:40] Two years, it could be one month.

[00:33:42] It could be 10 years.

[00:33:44] It's just good to know that there are people out there who you can listen to and know that you're not alone.

[00:33:50] Yeah, and I'd just like to say I really appreciate the opportunity to come on your podcast just in support of my last statement.

[00:33:56] You know, being able to try and do anything positive that I can with this horror.

[00:34:05] Right?

[00:34:07] It's helpful to me.

[00:34:09] I mean, there's just one person out there that this helps.

[00:34:13] This time was worth it.

[00:34:15] That's how I feel too.

[00:34:17] Just one person.

[00:34:19] You've achieved what you're supposed to.

[00:34:21] And let's hope that maybe today helps more than one anyway.

[00:34:24] Yeah.

[00:34:27] Let go of their deaths and remember their lives.

[00:34:31] I heard this in a movie titled Half Light.

[00:34:34] The main character lost her child to an accidental drowning and she kept her living that day triggers everywhere.

[00:34:40] Triggers do that to those of us who have lost someone.

[00:34:43] The main character had a lot of unspoken why's why's that keep us in the moment, the day, the hour loss happened.

[00:34:50] I am constantly thinking about why this happened to our family.

[00:34:54] What my children must have gone through.

[00:34:56] What were their thoughts?

[00:34:58] Were they afraid?

[00:35:00] Did they even have time to be afraid?

[00:35:02] I look at their children, my life in the world through the lens of someone who is broken often forgetting to remember their lives.

[00:35:10] It's hard.

[00:35:12] But our wise may never be answered.

[00:35:14] Our souls and spirits they live on and move on.

[00:35:16] I must learn to accept some things with which there are no answers.

[00:35:21] So for today, and I can only do this one day at a time, I will let go of their deaths.

[00:35:27] I will let go of all the why's and focus on remembering their lives.

[00:35:32] Thank you for sitting in with us today.

[00:35:34] We hope our conversation around why death helps you as you navigate your lost journey.

[00:35:39] And if you are enjoying these episodes, please hit like and follow on your favorite podcast site.

[00:35:44] Bye all.